Episode 58: Kevin Esvelt | Click to Listen

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After On Podcast #58: Recipes for Future Plagues

USAID’s new “Deep VZN” program aims to discover new pandemic-grade viruses and then broadcast their genomes to the world, according to MIT evolutionary engineer Kevin Esvelt. He that estimates 30,000 people in dozens of countries could then easily assemble them.

Kevin Esvelt

Today’s conversation will be an episode of two different shows. The After On podcast, of course. And, Making Sense - which my podcasting colleague Sam Harris hosts. We’re doing this because we both find the subject extraordinarily important -- and also timely enough that we want to get it out there fast. And since I’ve done a bunch of research that’s connected to the subject, and also know the guest, Sam and I thought the quickest thing would be for me conduct the interview – and then for both of us to distribute it.

Our topic is USAID’s new “DEEP VZN” program which aims to discover new pandemic-grade viruses and then broadcast their genomes to the world, according to our guest - MIT evolutionary engineer Kevin Esvelt. He that estimates that 30,000 people in dozens of countries could then easily assemble them. Which could easily and rapidly lead to the deaths of millions, or even hundreds of millions of people -- despite what Kevin is certain are the entirely good intentions of the people behind it.

The program is called DEEP VZN, and it’s part of USAID – the agency which distributes most American foreign aid. Kevin believes DEEP VZN is on a path to posting assembly instructions for what we can only call weapons of mass destruction. To the open Internet. For anyone to download. Specifically, the genomes of previously unknown pandemic-grade viruses that we have no defenses against. Viruses that tens of thousands of people in dozens of countries could easily build from scratch, as soon as DEEP VZN hands them the genetic code.

Now if this all sounds a bit bonkers to you, I get it. I struggled to believe my own ears at first. But if you listen to Kevin, you’ll quickly realize this isn’t some Covid-era conspiracy theory – even if he doesn’t ultimately persuade you that things are as dangerous as he believes. I’ll add that I wouldn’t have interviewed him for this if I thought he had even the faintest partisan agenda. I actually have no idea what party – if any – Kevin affiliates with. And I couldn’t care less. Because every point I’ve heard him make on this subject has been rooted in science -- not politics.

Now, some of Deep Visions plans could help us to fight pandemics. But after many hours of researching this, and talking to various people in academia, philanthropy, security, and entrepreneurship I believe that most of its agenda is appallingly misguided. And I’m not going to hide that, because I’m not an actor. And it would be dishonest.

 Despite that. In the second half of the interview I’ll present all of the best arguments I’ve heard -- or have thought of myself --  in favor of DEEP VZN. Because this is subject way too important for you not to hear the other side. I also want to convey why some very smart and ethical people sincerely this is a great idea. And show that thinking this doesn’t mean that they’re not smart and ethical. Because I’m sure they are.